cyus: (Torchwood)
[personal profile] cyus
Title: Wired
Characters/Pairing: Ianto/Lisa, Jack
Rating: R
Length: 677
Summary: Lisa is Ianto's girlfriend, encased in metal or not.
Notes: set pre-series

Harkness crossed the main floor of the Hub. His soles squeaked on the metal walkway. "Well-"

Ianto glanced at Harkness' boots, froze in mid-movement. Suzie cleared her throat, and he looked up at her. He swallowed, tried to say something, but she stared him down, so he kept his mouth shut and continued to sort the papers into folders.

"That time of the year, is it?" Owen leaned back in his chair, hands behind his head. The chair creaked with every shift of his weight, springs cranky.

"Snowdon is calling," Harkness replied.

"Yeah, it's screaming 'get away from me, Harkness, oh no, not you again'." Owen rolled his eyes and turned back to his workstation with a long screech of metal on metal.

Ianto's cock hardened.

He would watch her at night when she was asleep, balls and cock pressed to cold metal, just warming it with his own heat. He'd walk in, and she'd already have her eyes closed, painkillers dripping into her and shutting down her system.

He missed her.

Harkness took the steps to the main area at an easy jog. He stood, surveyed them, and Ianto watched from the corner of his eyes when he came closer, stood right beside him. Suzie glanced over, then turned back to her computer screen.

"Do you enjoy the work here then?" Harkness asked. He fingered one of the folders, looked at it, then dropped it back on the desk. "Fancy a trip up Snowdon?"

"Snowdon?"

Owen got up, metal springs screamed with the bounce, and Ianto pressed his crotch against the edge of the table, hidden from view by the sheets of paper in his hand. Arousal caught in his stomach, muscles in his thighs tense, and the edge of the desk didn't yield.

Harkness raised an eyebrow at him.

She'd shift, a screech of metal and metal, and all it meant was that she was still alive and still there. Hand between her legs, he'd push his cock against one of the metal plates, then she'd open her eyes and gasp. His fingers would slip into her. She didn't get wet anymore, not for him or anything, so it'd be his precome that would ease the way for a moment of heat, but even inside wires would grip him, and reality brought the fantasy crashing down. He'd jerk off against the metal and stain it with come while she was watching.

"Bit of excitement, hunting dead alien sheep, that kind of thing," Harkness went on.

Owen dropped onto his chair again. Metal screeched. Ianto pushed his crotch against the edge of the desk. His hips jerked once, twice before he stopped, face heating. The coffee in the cup rippled with the movement.

Harkness looked pointedly from the cup to Ianto's hips. "Not that exciting," he said after a pause, light tone. "Boys." He laughed, then leaned close. "You can still come. There'll be guns and ropes and all other kinds of entertaining things." He drew his hand down Ianto's back, then clapped him on the shoulder. "And me, of course. What do you say?" Jack brushed his thumb along the back of Ianto's neck.

Ianto nodded, his trousers tight.

"Finish up and be ready in thirty, then, Ianto," Harkness called as he pushed away and crossed the Hub again.

Ianto stared after Harkness. Suzie caught him, laughed and shook her head.

"I'll just carry this down to the archives," he told no-one in particular and held up the folders. They didn't even look up.

He took the stairs down to the lower levels of the Hub, walked past the archives.

She'd be asleep, but she usually was, at least at first. She'd say, 'thank you for making me feel alive', and he'd feel the part of the rapist anyway and flee. He always came back when she was asleep again and cleaned her, whispered he'd never do it again. But then he would, because she was the only thing he still had. He told himself that she never said 'no' and that that was enough.

Date: 2009-01-27 09:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] valancy-joy.livejournal.com
Disturbing in a wonderful sort of way...

And it immediately made me think that if take this as true/cannon... and assume that bits of this memory are floating around in Ianto's brain, it gives Adam some fodder for his planted rape memories...

Date: 2009-03-12 09:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Apologies for only getting back to you now, (I'm obviously a lazy arse when it comes to comment replying), but thank you for your comment, glad you enjoyed the slightly disturbing story.

I have to admit I didn't immediately think of Adam, but you are right, it taps into that dark part that I believe GDL mentioned in some interviews, how Adam didn't create something that wasn't there but only drew on the potential that exists in people. I do happen to agree with that interpretation, and in a way, this would kind of show it.

Thanks for commenting!

Date: 2009-01-27 10:28 pm (UTC)
ext_41770: Daleks (curtana  Life on Mars you are surrounded)
From: [identity profile] electro-club.livejournal.com
(Oh, how much do I hate LJ? It ate my big comment. Damn.)

So, I was saying... This story was good on the most disturbing way. It makes a weird, almost wrong kind of sense. Ianto was so screwed up around that time I can imagine him doing something like that (and it also seems very clear that he'd be terribly sorry afterwards, ashamed even). It's not that the situation's turned him into some kind of freak, it's the consequences of being that desperate and destroyed.

I liked it very much. It's also different. It's always about how tempted Ianto was to give in to Jack's charms. For once it wasn't Jack making hard.

Date: 2009-03-12 09:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
I do feel I should apologize for only getting back to you now, most certainly not intentional but especially on this story, with the different interpretations people came up with I was a bit afraid to stop the flow of interpretation so to speak by responding to people with something like 'weeeeeeell- actually, no, that's not what I meant' since I do believe that once I have written a story the interpretation of the story is out of my hands, and it's not my position to correct someone's interpretation of the story or tell them 'no, actually, it's like this' because it's good there are different interpretations and it's kind of, for me, the reason for writing something, that people come up with different views of the thing and to succeed in such a way that and write the story ambigious enough, indeed, people can have very varied interpretations of the content.

So, umm, after reading TWU, I do honestly feel sorry for not having replied to this (and I have, in fact, read your comment on the rec of this on TWH and appreciated it, too, but felt that it would have been the wrong venue to put it there).

To your comment: I tend to see Ianto as someone who is damaged, yes, and as someone who is trying his best to hold himself together and to hold a somewhat normal life together, and what he had with Lisa, that was normal. To me that was the peak of what he'd personally see as the life he ultimately enjoyed, so yes - I don't think his morals have suffered through his experiences (eg. he is still ashamed by his actions), but I do believe that it is in great ways, a quest to remain normal.

And I'm glad you liked the spin on the Jack/Ianto dynamic. I admit to liking to write stories where the want-love-sex isn't quite as clearcut as all that.

Thanks for the comment, appreciate it.

Date: 2009-03-13 03:38 am (UTC)
ext_41770: Daleks (Ianto sorrindo)
From: [identity profile] electro-club.livejournal.com
Oh man, did we make you feel bad about not replying to all your comments? Don't! It's normal, everybody does that. I don't bother leaving comments to certain authors when they don't reply, but those are very few, specific ones that I don't necessarily sympathize with. I understand why you didn't reply, it's valid. I'm one who thinks discussions about different interpretations are always valuable as well, but that's personal I guess.

Yes, I see your point. I suppose it's a different take on Ianto, but it makes sense. I have question though, feel free not to answer - how do you see his involvement with Jack? I mean, I do agree with you Ianto's probably doing his best to hold on to any normalcy he can grab, keep himself together, but when you say that, do you mean it by that time when he was still keeping Lisa in the basement, or overall? I'm sorry, it's just your comment made me curious.

Thanks for getting back to me. =) Your effort has been truly appreciated.

Date: 2009-03-13 07:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Oh my active replying to comments has actually spurned two conversations yesterday so I am quite happy, really. For me, I do like discussions about interpretations, but I hesitate when people look to me, as the author, for the true interpretation so to speak, as if I, as the author, have the only valid interpretation of the contents of the story because I wrote it and that all other interpretations somehow matter less. I believe that a story leaves my hands as soon as it is online and that my interpretation of the contents is only as valid as everyone else's interpretation of the story, and that there is not one true way to see a story but quite a few different ways (ideally, it depends a bit on how complex or ambigious the story is).

I do believe that Ianto is someone who tries to hold himself/his life together by holding on to things. And Jack is the ideal thing to hold onto, what with the no-dying business. I believe that throughout the seasons he manages to deal with losing Lisa (mostly), but that in a way Jack becomes the new thing upon which to rely even if it disappoints you or doesn't behave the way you do. I tend to write Ianto as someone who is always longing for something that is not Torchwood Three in Cardiff (there seems to be a theme of him glorifying London running through the stories lately, that has him thinking that he was happy in London etc). I do tend to write Ianto as someone who was happiest with Lisa and happiest in London. I think he has a different kind of happiness with Jack, it's more jaded, not quite as carefree and innocent, and it's not overflowing, but I tend to think Ianto is a pragmatist and he takes the bits of happiness he can and that he is happy with Jack, in their own ways (naturally, since it's Jack and Ianto, and not Lisa and Ianto, it would be a bit different), but that he sometimes longs for the ease and the carefreeness of the relationship with Lisa or really anyone that isn't Jack.

Date: 2009-03-14 04:10 am (UTC)
ext_41770: Daleks (Jack wants to do you)
From: [identity profile] electro-club.livejournal.com
I like your idea of Ianto missing London and his previous life, sort of keeping it shielded from all of the subsequent horror.

I personally don't think it was easy for Ianto to even think of London and/or Lisa, for a while at least. I can't imagine him being able to separate the murderous cyberwoman and all the horror of Canary Wharf from his girlfriend and the life he used to have in London. It probably wasn't a pleasant thing to think about (and I tend to believe one of the reasons Ianto has become so dedicated, so to speak, to Jack is probably because Jack appeared to him as an option to all this - Jack implicated a completely different concept of life, the opposite of everything he had before, just what he might have been in need of back then).

I think he has a different kind of happiness with Jack, it's more jaded, not quite as carefree and innocent, and it's not overflowing, but I tend to think Ianto is a pragmatist and he takes the bits of happiness he can and that he is happy with Jack, in their own ways

And that is exactly what I think. I think of Ianto as someone who's not hoping to live to see the next day or daring to make any kinds of plans (getting married, having a family, getting a dog, asking Jack to move in together). He accepts his new reality as skeptically as he can, because he knows that's as much as he'll get, and he's fine with it. Someone who sees things more harshly, for what they really are, not the fantastic, mythical, fantasy world it seems to be (though it is, too, partly). He understands what Torchwood is about, what Jack is about - what he can offer and what he can't, what he'll do and what he won't. They're honest, I think. Pretty honest, their relationship. Not on the sense that they'll tell everything to each other and never keep secrets, more like they'll be hiding things from each other, and are both very aware of it (among other things, of course). Maybe it's the way they're both so hurt and damaged that they can find some sort of peace in each other. It's the difference between Ianto and Gwen, I think.

I agree he was probably happier in London, when, in comparison, everything seemed easier. There was no saving the world every day (not him, anyway), no expecting to find death in every corner, not knowing he'll most likely lose everyone he works with/knows sooner than he'll ever be ready to accept. Thinking of how relatively ‘softer’ things were when he had a cool job, a pretty girlfriend and could make plans for the future must be something to hold onto, though very depressing as well. He'll never be completely happy or satisfied with this parameter in mind - but, honestly, I can see him as someone who's all but expecting something as subjective and ephemeral as happiness. He's happy, in a sense, just never complete, and, as you said, he finds his own happiness in the little things, everything he can get.

So yeah, I had never really though of things that way, but I think I agree with you, kind of. I don't think, for instance, Ianto needs someone out of Torchwood and Jack, I think he's pretty committed to Jack, all the while not necessarily waiting for Jack to be committed to him with the same intensity. But I do think he needs things to keep him in touch with normality. He probably doesn't want Torchwood or Jack to be present in and part of every aspect of his life.

(Gigantic, babbling, sort of useless comment. Feel free to ignore. =D And apologizes for the rape of the English language.)

Date: 2009-01-27 10:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wiredblowfish.livejournal.com
Wow. This is the most interesting TW fanfic I have read. True to the weirdness of the series. Such a great detail you have come up with--that metal against metal makes him hard.

And the partial rape/necrophilia of his relationship with Lisa.

Well Done. Bravo!

Date: 2009-03-12 09:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Apologies for late reply, but hey. Is it still the most interesting TW fanfic to date now that you have read more? Seriously, am glad you liked it, because I do think there is a lot of potential for darkness in Torchwood that only few writers tap into: death, messed-up relationship dynamics, questionable choices, and these weird innocent blossomings of love that get expressed in strange ways.

And metal against metal, I have to admit it was a quick idea of 'ooh, someone might be conditioned to react to something there just through increased exposure coupled with sexual feelings'.

Thanks for commenting, appreciate it.

Date: 2009-01-28 02:18 am (UTC)
ext_3690: Ianto Jones says, "Won't somebody please think of the children?!?" (children)
From: [identity profile] robling-t.livejournal.com
Um... interesting. Not being sarcastic, I mean, it's very different and strange and I'm still not quite sure what I think, which as a writer I know is a good reaction, it means you've got the neurons to fire in a way that they weren't before. Um... yeah. Not coherent, that, but I suppose it's a Good Review. :)

Date: 2009-03-12 10:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
I'm late in getting back to the comments on this, but I wanted to say thansk for the comment, it's very much appreciated. You are right, the 'oh wait a second, what IS this?!' is a reaction I do find desirable as a writer, just something to push people to think about things in certain ways, or consider dynamics and issues from angles they haven't looked at before, so I do very much appreciate your comment because it's a little notch on the success-side of my writing. Am happy to hear it, thanks.

Date: 2009-01-29 12:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] antelope-writes.livejournal.com
JEEBUS.

That is both hot and fucking disturbing. Go you.

Jeez.

Date: 2009-01-29 01:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hanuueshe.livejournal.com
Ow. This is kind of... ow.

(And also? I kind of want to know what the Cybermen wired Lisa's vagina for.)

Date: 2009-03-12 09:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Oops I'm late in replying to this (*shamefaced apology*), but your comment actually made me laugh out loud when I read it, about the wiring of Lisa's vagina, since it made me wonder if cybermen have metal-sex. It's - curious stuff.

Thanks for the comment, glad you enjoyed (well, in some way) the story, appreciate it.

Date: 2009-01-29 02:02 am (UTC)
ext_47311: (Default)
From: [identity profile] frakkin-addict.livejournal.com
wow, powerfully sad. Well done.

Date: 2009-03-12 10:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Apologies for the delay in replying to this, but thanks for the comment. And also: thanks for saying that you found it sad because that was, in many ways, the primary emotional colour I was going for: despair, sadness, loneliness. Glad to hear it worked.

Date: 2009-01-29 04:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alba17.livejournal.com
Wow, very creative and interesting. And it makes sense.

Date: 2009-03-12 09:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Managing to reply to comments now, so thanks for the comment, I appreciate it. And thanks for the mentions on your LJ (yeah I have snooped around and checked it out), appreciate those too.

Specifically to this, I'm glad it makes sense to someone else, because it made sense to me as I wrote it. And I'd take creative any day.

Date: 2009-03-12 01:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alba17.livejournal.com
Yeah, I rec'd a couple of your fics. Sometime I'll come back and read the ones I haven't gotten around to. There's just too much stuff to read - argh. And now, thanks to the frottage fest, I know you have another LJ name! (I think I left a comment at your other LJ page at some point, about something or other - TW novels, maybe?) Somehow I had a feeling you did, I don't know why. Do you post all your fic under [livejournal.com profile] cyus? Or is that just for Torchwood, or only fan fic, or what? I might friend you because I feel like I missed some fics.

Date: 2009-03-12 02:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Hah the mystery unravels. *squints*

Yeah, I use cruentum for all the personal LJ stuff (feel free to friend if you want to) and for, ah TWH, recently, and cyus for the fanfiction. I used to post HP fanfic with cruentum when I was in that fandom years ago, but no, now everything is on cyus except for the frottage porn stuff which for reasons that are a little foggy to me, too, I decided to post with my regular account (but I might repost at least the Tosh/Ianto properly to this one after some edits or some such).

But yeah, if you are there for the fic, so to speak, you'll find everything that is something here. I got this sticky index post at the top, everything's in there. There is talk of agonizing over writing at my regular Lj and occasional quickie fiction things that I save to my 'hey this is a cool idea, might have to edit that someday and turn it into something' folder, but otherwise it's personal blather and the fiction happens here.

Date: 2009-03-12 02:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alba17.livejournal.com
Hope you don't mind me asking you those questions. I guess not, since you answered them. I only read about 1/2 of the frottage fics and I didn't see the Ianto/Tosh one yet - I must get back over there and read it! (and all the other ones) I think that's an interesting pairing. Do you write original fic too? you seem to be a very experienced writer (from the vantage point of a very INexperienced one who's rather in awe of you).

Date: 2009-03-12 02:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Nah I don't mind. It's really not all as mysterious as keeping two separate journals suggests, but at the time of my starting to write TW fanfic I didn't really have any TW folks on my regular journal's flist and didn't and still don't want to inundate all of them with TW fiction, hence my having a separate LJ.

I- hmm, I do write original fiction occasionally but not in any kind of coordinated effort, whenever an idea pops up I write it out. There is a lost attempt at a type of m/m murder mystery set in Cardiff that I was 2 and a half chapters into that I might pick up again because it was somewhat fun to write, but really, it's only since I started writing TW that I am honestly really making somewhat of an effort at this writing gig and trying to make it good and make it mine, in a way. Torchwood has been good for me as a fandom, in terms of the canon being rather nicely suitable to push my writing into cool areas. Before that I wrote two or three things in HP, a bunch of things in 2002 or so in X-Files and some five or six original fiction projects, mostly short stories, so actually Torchwood has seen my greatest concentrated fiction output, I believe, so, really, not that experienced.

Date: 2009-03-12 05:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alba17.livejournal.com
Ooh, the mystery sounds interesting (love mysteries). Separate LJs: that makes sense. I started mine just for TW and I only talk about fannish things on there. Otherwise, anything else goes on a blog I started elsewhere - basically because my flist is just TW folks and I didn't want to bother people with politics and other things I have no clue whether they'd be interested in.

Fan fic: I keep thinking I haven't written very much, but I just counted it up and I've done 10 TW fics, more than I thought - a couple are really short, and it's mostly in the fluffy/funny/smutty mode (basically the opposite of your stuff, LOL) and I'm not sure any of it's any good (although I do have a beta and I hope she'd tell me if anything was utter crap which should be kept to myself). I'm working on my first thing in a different fandom and it's actual slash (eep!), which feels kind of like parachuting out of an airplane.

Date: 2009-03-12 06:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Okay that is almost the other way around then, yeah, but the essential idea of breaking things up a bit is the same. And you know, the people on my flist who like the fiction know where to find it, too.

I'm always saying that I can't do smut but I am actually editing something that will be in the NC-17, so it does work somehow. I read your ikea fic. Read it to my girlfriend, too. She wants to check out the ikea in Cardiff when we are in the area in July, now.

What fandom are you delving into now?

Date: 2009-03-13 12:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alba17.livejournal.com
I hope you weren't reading the Ikea fic to make fun of it. :) (insecurity) It's cool that you read it. I didn't know if there was an Ikea in Cardiff, LOL, I just went with it. Someone who read it said she went to her local Ikea and took photos of possible assignation spots, haha, I got a kick out of that.

Other fandom is, well, not really a full-fledged fandom: 24, believe it or not. The first episode brought on slashy thoughts.

Date: 2009-03-13 12:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Oh no, not at all, I read because I thought it was funny (in good ways - which- maybe I should have said on the story - I am just getting the hang on this commenting thing), and I am in the habit of reading TW fic to her, so nah - no need to feel insecure.

Yup - there is an ikea right there, actually across the railway lines behind the Bed&Breakfast we'll be staying at, which frankly caused some chuckles over here in connection with the fic.

24. I only watched the beginning of that way back then, but interesting to have slashy thoughts on that.

Date: 2009-03-13 02:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alba17.livejournal.com
Heh, that's funny that you're staying so close to the IKEA in Cardiff. That's so nice that you and your GF both like Torchwood and you read fic out loud to her. *melt* I couldn't even get mine to watch it. When are you going to Cardiff?

I read so many complaints about bad TW fic that I'm paranoid.

Date: 2009-03-13 02:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Well, I made my girlfriend watch Torchwood. It's a bit of a dynamic we have developed that it's me who becomes interested in something and then drag her in by saying "YOU HAVE TO READ THIS! THIS IS AWESOME!" and she says, "But Niiiiick, I have no time," and I say, "SO I'M GOING TO READ IT TO YOU WHEN YOU ARE IN YOUR CAR!" and that way, err, she really has no choice, and she likes my reading to her, especially the porny moany bits in porn.

We are going to Cardiff in July - July 4th to 10th, or something like that, if I remember that correctly, yeah. Well - Cardiff and Wales really since I definitely wanna go up Snowdon and hang out in the Brecon Beacons and Merthyr Mawr etc, so maybe a day or two in Cardiff and the rest in the countryside. My friends insist I need to take Torchwoody/Who photos, as does my girlfriend, but I am still resisting that one, we'll see how it turns out.

There is quite a bit of bad TW fic, but really, nothing to overly worry about. You know it when you see it, really.

Date: 2009-01-29 04:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] temporal-tech.livejournal.com
This is strangely kinky, but really well done. It makes sense!

Date: 2009-03-12 10:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Am way behind on replying to comments, sorry for the belated 'hey, thanks!' in your inbox, but I do appreciate your comment. And am extremely happy to hear that it made sense to you, because while I was going for an angle that pushed people's sensibilities a bit I was most certainly also going for an angle that IS possible, maybe even likely, if not entirely probable. So, good to hear it worked and thank you for your comment.

Date: 2009-01-29 12:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] invisible-lift.livejournal.com
I know we've chatted about this a fair bit, but I think the angle that makes this interesting to me (and makes all the questions difficult to answer) is the ambiguity of the whole situation. There's no clear path for Ianto, and that's brilliant.

Date: 2009-01-29 06:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] athaari.livejournal.com
The first time I read it, two days ago, I wasn't impressed, mainly because I don't think the metal exoskeleton would make penetration, between her legs, possible. That pulled me out of the story, so I just skimmed through the rest.

I reread it; ignored my thoughts on anatomical details, which turned out to be a good decision, and focused on Ianto's inner conflict, that you conveyed in a few sentences. Is he (ab)using her or does she really want it?

Normally authors use metal (its sounds, smells, etc.) as a metaphor for Ianto's emotional state to emphasise how sick it makes him, seeing Lisa like this. If he touches her at all, they'll let him search for the parts of her that still feel organic. I like how you twisted this into an equally disturbing and kinky scenario. While metal kink is one of my favourite kinks, it is, by default, difficult to pull off in the Torchwood fandom, for obvious reasons. You make it work.
So, in a nutshell: dark, hot and Ianto's controversial/uncomfortable characterisation make for very good fic.

Date: 2009-01-30 12:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bassair.livejournal.com
Disturbingly good...

I don't know what else to say but that... o.o

Very good, though. Note the 'very good'....

Date: 2009-03-12 10:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Am late in getting back to you on this and to say thank you, but thank you! This is very much appreciated. Am noting the 'very good' and am pleased that you called it disturbing and the - you know - speechlessness. I wasn't quite sure how this would be received but am rather happy that people see the potential for this happening in Torchwood, that it could have been a possible way things unfolded. So thanks for the comment, very much appreciated.

Date: 2009-01-31 09:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hab318princess.livejournal.com
very interesting way of looking at that, thanks for sharing

Date: 2009-03-12 10:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
Better late than never, just saying thank you for the comment. I quite appreciated it. Thanks.

Date: 2009-04-23 05:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blue-fjords.livejournal.com
Huh.

Metal.

Ianto is seriously hurting. I've been debating in my head since I read this an hour ago if this was really a case of dubious consent or not. I tend to go w/ the "Lisa died at Canary Wharf" view b/c I cannot bear to think of her lying there, completely immobile, seeing what Ianto is doing for her, and unable to do anything about it. That's what I'd like to think. However, it's not how I actually think things were. I think there was a piece of her that was still her, trapped inside and experiencing everything. Would that part of her had wanted Ianto to have even this version of sex with her robotic body? I don't know. I do think she would have been fed up w/ his guilt over it, though, b/c a person can only handle so much of someone else's guilt. So maybe she would have lied and said "thank you for making me feel alive." (I say lied b/c I don't think it made her feel alive at all -- frustrated and heartsick, perhaps, which you have to be alive to feel, but not what you would call 'alive.')

One thing I've noticed about your Ianto fics is the central importance of Lisa and really, Ianto's life outside of Jack/Torchwood. (I tend to see Lisa as a kind of idealized love, and who knows if it would have survived much longer, if Ianto's survivor's guilt wouldn't have ultimately crushed them. Jack is the warts and all kind of love, in my opinion. He's rather warty.) But I like to see the other side of the coin, as it's certainly legitimate.

Anyhow, very interesting piece. Food for thought-y. Well, all of your stories are food for thought, but this one touches on even more issues than usual.

Date: 2009-04-23 08:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cyus.livejournal.com
I haven't added the dubcon warning, and I know that TWH has in their rec.

For me, I agree that Ianto's love for Lisa is more of an idea, an ideallized something of what could have been, maybe, or what he would have liked to see in the long run. I don't think his love for Jack is any greater or smaller or more special though (and I think their relationships is equally messed up on enough levels).

I don't disagree with your interpretations necessarily. It IS written from Ianto's POV and there is no way to tell from his interpretation just what Lisa actually feels and how she actually feels. I like to think she loved him and that she let him have that because she loved him even if it broke her heart. In a way, a sort of payback for all the work he puts into it and he is allowed to do it, maybe that is how she explains it in her head. To Ianto, I think he wouldn't necessarily realize that (except the guilt says he does). I don't think he wants to think further than the actual act, than what they are doing, because it would burst that bubble.

For me, the sex is their attempt to hold onto a normal life, on to something they have had before, to forget for just a while what they are doing. It's mostly working for Ianto, it's probably not working for Lisa, but I tend to think she'd let him have it. And certainly it's not the most romantic view to think of relationships as a check of balances and investments, but I think that Lisa feels she owes him. I don't think she resents that, I don't think it makes her hate Ianto and I don't think that she does it unwillingly. She wants to make him happy. And if that is one thing she can still do to make him happy she is going to try that.

How futile and how messed up that is, no disagreements.

And while I agree that it would make her heartsick and feel bad, I think part of her would be happy, and glad that Ianto can still get some kind of enjoyment out of this situation (as little as Ianto may actually ENJOY the act), because - and this is entering the dubcon territory for me more than anything else - how much can she still give him, this is something she CAN give him. I like to think she doesn't do it out of guilt, I like to think she still loves him and that part of her love causes her to want to make him happy.

Really, the dubcon sticker depends on your interpretation of the characters and of the actions, in my opinion.

Ianto's love for Jack - I see it as less idealized, but perhaps a continuation, something to cling to fill that whole (and what better to use to fill the whole of a girlfriend who died than someone who will never die). I don't see it as romantic or particularly well-adjusted. Ianto fell into it when he was in a pretty vulnerable place, and he's still in it now - he took Jack back after he'd fucked off with the Doctor - it kind of depends, again, on interpretations of how adjusted or not adjusted that is, or on interpretations on how much Ianto feels he needs to be dependable and how little he is unable to break out of relationships. I can see a LOT of intepretations re: Jack/Ianto and Jack/Lisa work, really, but I think that Ianto's love for Jack is based on a power-imbalance (simply by how he stumbled into it), that he is slowly gnawing away at, and Jack's love for Ianto - well, Ianto is a blip in Jack's life ultimately. I don't doubt that he's still at a point in his life where he allows love to happen (I kind of doubt it 5000, 6000 years down the road), or where it actually still registers as something, but I don't think Ianto is anything special to him, not more, not more less than other lovers he's had. And he's only been with him, what, maximum two years. That's very little time to a guy who already lived 120 years linearly as an adult.

Anyway, bottom line, I agree that quite a few interpretations are possible and plausible. In this particularly one, I don't think Ianto is a rapist, but that ultimately is based on my idea of Lisa in it, and it's left pretty open in the story how much delusion plays into Ianto's thoughts and actions, so I'm hardly going to discount other interpretations as invalid.

Thanks for the comment. I appreciated it lots.

*is enlightened*

Date: 2009-06-19 06:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vahinkoelain.livejournal.com
Hi! I'm not sure if it's appropriate to butt in on other peoples' comments, but it's specifically your comment that inspired me to express my thoughts, so... I wanted to let you know that your comment makes a LOT of sense to me.

(I had read this fic earlier, but couldn't think up a comment at the time. Still, this fic kind of... stayed with me. Was it because it was so disturbing? ;) Well, that too, but the events seemed plausible to me and this became one of my canons. (Yes, I can say that I have several alternative truths about the show - I don't think they cancel each other out.))

This part of your comment particularly hit a chord: "And certainly it's not the most romantic view to think of relationships as a check of balances and investments, but I think that Lisa feels she owes him. I don't think she resents that--"

In the context of your fic, this makes SO MUCH SENSE! And in the context of, you know, the world.

I'm not talking about sacrificing yourself for someone you love (that's what Ianto is doing, too) in general but about how women have been conditioned to this mindset that their body is something that can be traded. And Torchwood doesn't exist in a cultural vacuum. I certainly have followed the same logic from time to time. "He's such a nice boy and he actually listens to me. So maybe I'll let him have a cuddle even though it makes me feel uncomfortable." I think that could quite easily become "He's my boyfriend and has suffered so much just to make me stay alive, so I should let him have his reward."

Ok, now I'm just paraphrasing you. Anyway, thinking about Lisa's position in all of this added depth to the original piece of writing - even though the original piece was also brilliant in its sparsity. What you said about Ianto and Jack's relationship in your comment was really interesting, too! (even though I didn't understand 100 % of it) And your comment made me realize that my logic in rewarding boys for acting like decent human beings with physical intimacy is seriously fucked up. So you've also made a feminist effort. :) Thank you!

Date: 2009-05-18 10:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] azriona.livejournal.com
Hi! I'm here from the [livejournal.com profile] cot_reviews community. First of all, congratulations on your nomination for Round Three of the Children of Time Awards (http://childrenoftime.creative-musings.com/awards/index.htm).

We at CoT Reviews try to review all of the nominated stories in each round, and in today's post we've featured your story (http://community.livejournal.com/cot_reviews/20735.html). Please feel free to stop by and look.

This was such an incredibly moving story - for all that it seems like a comedy of errors at the start. I liked how you made the comparisons between the squeaks of the metal chairs, to Lisa down below. And Ianto's kink, to Jack's. (Because if Jack thinks kink is appropriate, then there's a very good chance it's not.)

Congratulations again, and good luck!

Date: 2009-09-14 02:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nancybrown.livejournal.com
I cannot possibly add to anything the previous commenters have said, but I wanted to say that this was disturbing and thought-provoking and very very good.

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