I haven't added the dubcon warning, and I know that TWH has in their rec.
For me, I agree that Ianto's love for Lisa is more of an idea, an ideallized something of what could have been, maybe, or what he would have liked to see in the long run. I don't think his love for Jack is any greater or smaller or more special though (and I think their relationships is equally messed up on enough levels).
I don't disagree with your interpretations necessarily. It IS written from Ianto's POV and there is no way to tell from his interpretation just what Lisa actually feels and how she actually feels. I like to think she loved him and that she let him have that because she loved him even if it broke her heart. In a way, a sort of payback for all the work he puts into it and he is allowed to do it, maybe that is how she explains it in her head. To Ianto, I think he wouldn't necessarily realize that (except the guilt says he does). I don't think he wants to think further than the actual act, than what they are doing, because it would burst that bubble.
For me, the sex is their attempt to hold onto a normal life, on to something they have had before, to forget for just a while what they are doing. It's mostly working for Ianto, it's probably not working for Lisa, but I tend to think she'd let him have it. And certainly it's not the most romantic view to think of relationships as a check of balances and investments, but I think that Lisa feels she owes him. I don't think she resents that, I don't think it makes her hate Ianto and I don't think that she does it unwillingly. She wants to make him happy. And if that is one thing she can still do to make him happy she is going to try that.
How futile and how messed up that is, no disagreements.
And while I agree that it would make her heartsick and feel bad, I think part of her would be happy, and glad that Ianto can still get some kind of enjoyment out of this situation (as little as Ianto may actually ENJOY the act), because - and this is entering the dubcon territory for me more than anything else - how much can she still give him, this is something she CAN give him. I like to think she doesn't do it out of guilt, I like to think she still loves him and that part of her love causes her to want to make him happy.
Really, the dubcon sticker depends on your interpretation of the characters and of the actions, in my opinion.
Ianto's love for Jack - I see it as less idealized, but perhaps a continuation, something to cling to fill that whole (and what better to use to fill the whole of a girlfriend who died than someone who will never die). I don't see it as romantic or particularly well-adjusted. Ianto fell into it when he was in a pretty vulnerable place, and he's still in it now - he took Jack back after he'd fucked off with the Doctor - it kind of depends, again, on interpretations of how adjusted or not adjusted that is, or on interpretations on how much Ianto feels he needs to be dependable and how little he is unable to break out of relationships. I can see a LOT of intepretations re: Jack/Ianto and Jack/Lisa work, really, but I think that Ianto's love for Jack is based on a power-imbalance (simply by how he stumbled into it), that he is slowly gnawing away at, and Jack's love for Ianto - well, Ianto is a blip in Jack's life ultimately. I don't doubt that he's still at a point in his life where he allows love to happen (I kind of doubt it 5000, 6000 years down the road), or where it actually still registers as something, but I don't think Ianto is anything special to him, not more, not more less than other lovers he's had. And he's only been with him, what, maximum two years. That's very little time to a guy who already lived 120 years linearly as an adult.
Anyway, bottom line, I agree that quite a few interpretations are possible and plausible. In this particularly one, I don't think Ianto is a rapist, but that ultimately is based on my idea of Lisa in it, and it's left pretty open in the story how much delusion plays into Ianto's thoughts and actions, so I'm hardly going to discount other interpretations as invalid.
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Date: 2009-04-23 08:06 am (UTC)For me, I agree that Ianto's love for Lisa is more of an idea, an ideallized something of what could have been, maybe, or what he would have liked to see in the long run. I don't think his love for Jack is any greater or smaller or more special though (and I think their relationships is equally messed up on enough levels).
I don't disagree with your interpretations necessarily. It IS written from Ianto's POV and there is no way to tell from his interpretation just what Lisa actually feels and how she actually feels. I like to think she loved him and that she let him have that because she loved him even if it broke her heart. In a way, a sort of payback for all the work he puts into it and he is allowed to do it, maybe that is how she explains it in her head. To Ianto, I think he wouldn't necessarily realize that (except the guilt says he does). I don't think he wants to think further than the actual act, than what they are doing, because it would burst that bubble.
For me, the sex is their attempt to hold onto a normal life, on to something they have had before, to forget for just a while what they are doing. It's mostly working for Ianto, it's probably not working for Lisa, but I tend to think she'd let him have it. And certainly it's not the most romantic view to think of relationships as a check of balances and investments, but I think that Lisa feels she owes him. I don't think she resents that, I don't think it makes her hate Ianto and I don't think that she does it unwillingly. She wants to make him happy. And if that is one thing she can still do to make him happy she is going to try that.
How futile and how messed up that is, no disagreements.
And while I agree that it would make her heartsick and feel bad, I think part of her would be happy, and glad that Ianto can still get some kind of enjoyment out of this situation (as little as Ianto may actually ENJOY the act), because - and this is entering the dubcon territory for me more than anything else - how much can she still give him, this is something she CAN give him. I like to think she doesn't do it out of guilt, I like to think she still loves him and that part of her love causes her to want to make him happy.
Really, the dubcon sticker depends on your interpretation of the characters and of the actions, in my opinion.
Ianto's love for Jack - I see it as less idealized, but perhaps a continuation, something to cling to fill that whole (and what better to use to fill the whole of a girlfriend who died than someone who will never die). I don't see it as romantic or particularly well-adjusted. Ianto fell into it when he was in a pretty vulnerable place, and he's still in it now - he took Jack back after he'd fucked off with the Doctor - it kind of depends, again, on interpretations of how adjusted or not adjusted that is, or on interpretations on how much Ianto feels he needs to be dependable and how little he is unable to break out of relationships. I can see a LOT of intepretations re: Jack/Ianto and Jack/Lisa work, really, but I think that Ianto's love for Jack is based on a power-imbalance (simply by how he stumbled into it), that he is slowly gnawing away at, and Jack's love for Ianto - well, Ianto is a blip in Jack's life ultimately. I don't doubt that he's still at a point in his life where he allows love to happen (I kind of doubt it 5000, 6000 years down the road), or where it actually still registers as something, but I don't think Ianto is anything special to him, not more, not more less than other lovers he's had. And he's only been with him, what, maximum two years. That's very little time to a guy who already lived 120 years linearly as an adult.
Anyway, bottom line, I agree that quite a few interpretations are possible and plausible. In this particularly one, I don't think Ianto is a rapist, but that ultimately is based on my idea of Lisa in it, and it's left pretty open in the story how much delusion plays into Ianto's thoughts and actions, so I'm hardly going to discount other interpretations as invalid.
Thanks for the comment. I appreciated it lots.